One of seven brothers, Nick Cave grew up watching his family create magic out of scraps. His aunts would cut paper bags into patterns, and in just one day, make an entire new outfit to wear that night. Since then, the artist has been dedicated to studying how to lay ornamental patterns on the body.
Leading the way for a current groundswell of adornment in art, Cave is known for highly decorated, maximalist works, particularly in his “Soundsuits,” which are both unapologetically joyous and respond to the deep pain of police brutality against Black people. His newest body of work, on view in Amalgams and Graphts at Jack Shainman Gallery’s large space in the Clock Tower Building through March 29, pushes and pulls the forms he’s known for playing with. Introducing needlepoint and portraiture, he flattened out his meticulous collections of objects into riotous rectangles, winking at the heritage of 19th-century floral paintings. But he’s also elongated his humanoid figures, using bronze casts of 3D scans of his own body that burst into tree forms branching toward the heavens.
For this episode of the Hyperallergic Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Hrag Vartanian visited Cave at his studio in Chicago. You’ll hear them discuss how queerness informs his sensibility, his perspectives on fashion, preservation, politics, his memories of dressing in his Sunday best for church, and how the self-taught women crafters in his family planted the seeds for him to become the artist he is today.
Nick Cave: Amalgams and Graphts continues at Jack Shainman (46 Lafayette Street, Tribeca, Manhattan) through March 29.
Subscribe to Hyperallergic on Apple Podcasts, and anywhere you listen to podcasts. This episode is also available with images of the artwork on YouTube.
A full transcript of the interview can be found below. This transcript has been edited for length and clarity.
Nick Cave: I grew up in a family of makers. From woodworkers to seamstresses to poets. I was always surrounded by a way of doing and watching things being produced from nothing. So it was just like magic to me.
You know, my aunts, I would watch them sew. And they were all self taught. And they would make something to wear out that evening. So seeing all of that, I was like, “Oh, so that is possible. So I could get a sewing machine and I can make something to wear out the same day.”
All of that was all just transformative for me, just seeing the possibilities around all of that.
Hrag Vartanian: Hi there. Welcome to the Hyperallergic Podcast. In this episode, we’re talking to contemporary artist Nick Cave, who is probably best known for his “Soundsuit” sculptures, which he first created after the 1992 Rodney King riots. Now, he’s the subject of a major exhibition at Jack Shainman’s Clock Tower Space in Lower Manhattan. And for that, he’s created two bodies of works. The “Amalgam” series, made out of bronze, which features his own 3D scanned body. And then the “Graftworks,” which are more two dimensional, and include needle points of the artist himself in different personas. Those include various metal trays with painted floral patterns on them.
In this episode, we talk about his family, his love of sewing, the world of politics, and the new directions in his own work. It’s a really interesting conversation that gets into the mind of one of the most influential artists of the last few decades.
We also did a little video tour, for those of you who are watching this on YouTube, of the exhibition itself, so that those of you who didn’t have the privilege of coming to New York for the show will have a little glimpse of what you may have been missing.
You’ll see when you walk into the former bank space, which is a large two story space, large bronze sculptures placed in the center of the area and all the different “Graftworks” encircling the space. There’s also a separate gallery where there are three works by themselves, which you’ll see in the video, as well as another annex-like space on Broadway a block away, which is only open two days a week. And we got in there for you as well.
My name is Hrag Vartanian, the Editor-in-Chief and co-founder of Hyperallergic. Let’s get started.
Hrag Vartanian: So what are you calling these new pieces? What are these new tray pieces? What are they called?
Nick Cave: These are called “Graphts.” I’m thinking about the morphing of photographs and skin grafts—when you’re in surgery where they take skin from one place, and … again it’s a way of mending and sort of building surface or a skin of sorts.
Hrag Vartanian: And you mentioned while we were talking about “serving,” it’s kind of this idea of, even in queer culture, “serving,” but also just in general, “in service of.” So, can you talk a little bit about that term for you? What seems like a rich place for you in that term?
Nick Cave: My work has always been based around service, in that it’s always been me thinking about ways to bring community together. It’s always been based around memory and collective outreach. And I think even more so, through performance, through collaborations. I mean, when I even think about building this work, I am working with probably three fabrication houses. There are so many outside resources. So that’s just interesting that it’s just not the solo artist doing every aspect of the work, that it really takes a team to build the work. There’s this sort of real collective wholeness and commitment that’s there. Everybody’s invested in the outcome.
Hrag Vartanian: So how do you see your relationship with all of those parts? Are you a composer? How do you envision that in your head?
Nick Cave: Oh, I’m certainly a composer. When I realized that it was needlepoint that I was interested in, I’m like, “Okay, the studio has never needlepointed. Nobody knows how to needlepoint.” So for three months, that’s what we did. And so I’m sort of like, “Is this what I want to do? Is this the direction?” But like everything else, I have to experiment. And so there’s this space there that allows that to all happen. So that’s happening at the same time. I’m like, “Okay, am I going to dive? Am I going to go all in with this 26-foot bronze that will be in the exhibition?” And I just said, “Fuck it,” and just jumped in and went for it. Again, working in upstate New York, having my body scanned, having material scanned to put pattern on the body, working every Sunday on Zoom, developing the piece, and then working with boundaries. And so I’m like, “Okay, I’m having to conduct, lead, direct, this whole sort of assemblage of creators.”
Hrag Vartanian: So where does this maximalist aesthetic come from?
Nick Cave: I think it comes being raised with not much and just understanding that my resources are really … may it be in the woods, may it be at a flea market or a garage sale. And just being able to know that the abundance of excess is there. I mean, for me, that’s how I’ve always worked. At the end of the day, I am not going to the art store for anything. I am going to the flea markets, to the garage sales, to these sort of places that I can … I’ve always been interested in sustainability within the practice. And looking at the abundance of surplus, it’s just always been sort of an amazing vibe for me. I’m just astonished by all that’s out there.
Hrag Vartanian: So the home you were raised in, or the homes, were there a lot of patterns? Were there a lot of textures? How would you describe those spaces that you grew up in?
Nick Cave: There was a lot of style. There were a lot of makers. I grew up in a family of makers, from woodworkers to seamstresses to poets. I was always surrounded by a way of doing and watching things being produced from nothing. So it was just magic to me. Like, I remember when for Halloween, my grandmother decided to make us all costumes. And we’re talking, working with paper bags to construct a pattern. I’m just looking at all of this happening and it was all just sort of magic. And I’m like, “Whoa, it’s all happening in the moment.” So I’ve always been around that sort of level of indulgement and this resourceful way of being creative.
Hrag Vartanian: Did your grandmother have floral patterns around? Did she have doilies? I’m interested in that built reality.
Nick Cave: I think this was like … when I look at this, I’m thinking of the wallpaper that was in the dining room. So again, this idea of space and how we adorned it in that sort of capacity. But I was around, again, her quilting and cloth and pattern and prints. I was growing up in style. My mother paid attention to style. I had my first platform shoes when I was 14 years old, and two-tone color pants. And just sort of, again, being able to just lay it on the body.
Hrag Vartanian: How would you characterize your mother’s style?
Nick Cave: Oh, very high fashion. From what I knew to be high fashion. And see that’s the other sort of extraordinary thing about it, it’s that we grew up lower middle class, and so it was all about tidiness. It was all about a neatness, a crispness in the way in which you dress, the way in which you put things together. And also just a way of how one feels … an emotional sort of feeling that was built in confidence and beauty. My mother grew up one of 16, so my aunts, I would watch them sew. They were all self-taught, and they would make something to wear that evening. So seeing all of that, I was like, “Oh, so that is possible. So I could get a sewing machine and I can make something to wear out the same day.” All of that was all just transformative for me, just the possibilities around all of that.
Hrag Vartanian: So in a family that seems quite large, what role did style play to differentiate each other, if at all?
Nick Cave: Well, I grew up one of seven boys. And so, it was hand-me-downs for me. And I wasn’t having it. So I’m like, “Okay, I’m cutting off the sleeves.” So I was in that sort of process of renegotiating what this all meant, and how can I define myself through a hand-me-down?
Hrag Vartanian: So it was a way of identity for you.
Nick Cave: It was identity, but it was really sort of ownership in a sense too, which was interesting.
Hrag Vartanian: Claiming it.
Nick Cave: Yeah.
Hrag Vartanian: So, did things you create ever get passed down? Where are you in the order?
Nick Cave: I was third.
Hrag Vartanian: Okay. So then when you did that, did those get passed down?
Nick Cave: I don’t recall. I’m sure a few things did, but we are all one year apart.
Hrag Vartanian: Oh wow, okay.
Nick Cave: So really, we were all kind of growing pretty much at the same sort of rate, all boys.
Hrag Vartanian: Got it.
Nick Cave: That was very interesting.
Hrag Vartanian: Yeah, I bet. I bet. So it feels like there’s this sense of accumulation in general. And I’ve heard you talk about that with the sound suits and things, but in general, these also feel very much like there’s this accumulation. But there’s almost a … I don’t know what to call it. Is it a spiritual quality to it? There’s something about this sort of aesthetic accumulation that feels like something being reborn, to me.
Nick Cave: Yeah, I think it’s all coming from that place. I think it’s about looking at this whole idea of past, present, future, and something that we know it “as.” But it’s being claimed or structured to read as something “other.” But I’ve always … That nostalgic sort of history, the memory, it’s all this sort of romanticism that I’m interested in, not owning the past and letting that be present, but yet questioning, “But what are we experiencing now through these materials?” When I think about how all this toll is built, these are wall sconces and floor lamps and art nouveau, and rather gaudy in some—
Hrag Vartanian: In some kitchen and some—
Nick Cave: Yeah, all of it. And so again, just mashing that all together. And then looking at floral arrangements, particularly in painting. And so for me, these are just floral arrangements that are sort of part of the painting.
Hrag Vartanian: You know, in the French Academy, they used to sort of devalue floral painting as this kind of lesser painting. Are you conscious of elevating these types of things?
Nick Cave: Well, I was thinking about it the other day, and I was thinking about being raised and not having access to the means to buy fresh flowers. But the moment plastic flowers arrived, then they were in the house. And so this whole idea of, again, it doesn’t really matter fresh or not. It’s all about this whole idea of just creating and building and making something be, and to provide a feeling, a desire.
Hrag Vartanian: Is there an impulse to preserve something?
Nick Cave: Oh, well, of course. I’m interested in preservation, I’m interested in history. I’m interested in forcing us to stop and reflect and to reminisce. I’m interested in beauty, but I’m interested in pain at the same time, because that’s really the life in which I exist in.
Hrag Vartanian: And would you characterize your ideas of the future as optimistic or pessimistic?
Nick Cave: Yeah, optimistic for sure.
Hrag Vartanian: Where does that come from?
Nick Cave: That just comes from existing in the world as a human being.
Hrag Vartanian: But not everyone’s an optimist, so I’m just curious where that energy for you comes from.
Nick Cave: Well, I think as a person of color, I’m just thinking about this election, and to think how the voting transpired … it is really hard to think about the role of race within the context of this whole election, and to sort of understand where America is with that. But yet, I have to also carry on. And so, what do I put in place to heal? What do I put in place to establish clarity within my own existence? And how do those practices inform me to continue to project a better future?
Hrag Vartanian: I feel like all your work has optimism in it, even with some of the most negative stereotypes in the objects that you’re often incorporating. But then, something else I’ve also noticed is that there seems to be a role of shadows in your piece. They project really beautiful and curious shadows often.
Nick Cave: That’s interesting. Huh.
Hrag Vartanian: And I wondered about that, because they sort of have this kind of dual quality, right? Because the shadow is also something else. And then I’m seeing in these other pieces, they’re almost no shadows. And I am just kind of curious because it feels like there’s a tension there, and I don’t know how to think about it. I’m just sort of talking it out with you, with the creator of the objects. I’d love to hear a little bit about how you might respond to that. Do you think at all about the shadows that your objects project onto walls or when you’re arranging them in a gallery, in how you light them?
Nick Cave: I mean, I definitely think about the lighting. And for me, the work is one thing, but presentation is a whole other thing. So I sort of create that and treat that as choreography for the most part.
Hrag Vartanian: So it’s choreography that we’re seeing.
Nick Cave: Yeah. How the room is set up, how I intend you to move through the space, and the encounters that I am arranging for you to sort of be at pause with. And so lighting is an effect. And so, that also is very much part of the work. It’s really setting the stage for the experience to be delivered.
Hrag Vartanian: Have you ever radically changed the way you light a piece in different contexts?
Nick Cave: Oh yeah.
Hrag Vartanian: And what usually determines that for you?
Nick Cave: I think it’s really about whether I want you to have a wide experience or more intimate experience.
Hrag Vartanian: That’s interesting.
Nick Cave: So I can open it up and give you light, or I can close it in and where you have to come into the work and the move, the tone, the intimacy is received in a different way.
Hrag Vartanian: What do you think about being part of a large family, how does that influence your art?
Nick Cave: Well, I think being part of a large family and how that influences my art is … everything. I mean, I think that growing up, I had to … There’s moments that I want to be with all my brothers, and there’s moments I need to step out of all that and be by myself.
Hrag Vartanian: That almost sounds like the way you’re presenting the artwork too.
Nick Cave: Yeah. And building relationships and trust, and how do we sort of make up after a fight? And what are the things set in place for us to feel secure? And how do we protect one another? How do we give each other space? I remember growing up, and my brother, I was with him at school once, I think. I don’t know, I was young. And he goes, “I’m going to go over here with my friends.” And I said, “I’m going to go with you.” And he goes, “No, find your own friends.” And I really was really very upset by that. But at the same time I was like, “Whoa, I have to do that at some point. I can’t rely on his security all the time.” And so, all of that is present in the work. It has always been there, because I think I’m just settled in my body. In spite of everything that’s going on, I’m still very settled. I know who I am.
Hrag Vartanian: So I love that word, “settled.” So does that mean grounded? Because there also feels like there’s a certain lightness in the way you said it.
Nick Cave: I’m not sure if it means “grounded,” because sometimes the ground sort of erupts. But I think what I mean is just … resolved. I’ve been doing this for a minute, so I know how to … There’s no real perfection in any of this. And so I’ve learned to accept all the imperfections, the blemishes, and all of that’s beautiful.
Hrag Vartanian: It’s funny you say that. I almost feel like they are perfect in that way. So when you say that, I guess you’re only seeing the imperfections sometimes.
Nick Cave: I’m seeing the imperfections. I’m also seeing how it’s all built. I’m also … You get up close to here, I am not removing dust. I’m not removing any sort of stains because, no, it’s all—
Hrag Vartanian: Right. And some of the pieces seem to defy gravity in a way. Even some of those pieces, they sort of have this kind of uplift. And I know I’ve heard you talk about dancing being important to you. Do you feel like that’s another form of choreography for you? Where’s that energy coming from for you?
Nick Cave: Where does that energy come from? I think just being open to anything is possible. And how do you sort of, and I mean anything, the imperfections, everything. Like, I am not by any means drawing anything here. I am not working with a color aid kit and arranging colors before I make something … No, I’m just making it and just allowing my body. And I think that’s where dance comes in. It’s all about composition, it’s all about placement, it’s all about order, and it’s just how you have this overall kind of experience and entry points and just sort of … It’s very loose and fluid and not uptight.
Hrag Vartanian: Do you think there’s an Americanness in your work?
Nick Cave: What does that even mean, an “Americanness?” … Yes, I do, but I think it’s not “Americanness” as opposed to a “globalness.”
Hrag Vartanian: So how do you read the globalness?
Nick Cave: I think this body of work would fit in in Europe quite easily. Because I started to look at the history of floral paintings and arrangements. And to me, this just falls right there. But then I can come to Gee’s Bend, and we can just get into it from that sort of perspective. So I think the way of building … but no, it’s not just American.
Hrag Vartanian: But is there an Americanness that you see?
Nick Cave: I don’t even … no.
Hrag Vartanian: No?
Nick Cave: Mm-mm.
Hrag Vartanian: How about a queerness? How would you read that, if at all?
Nick Cave: I think queerness in my work is the sensibility of it. I think it’s so gentle, and it’s just something about the subtleties that’s very present. And … is it loud? I don’t know. Is it? Maybe? Is it?
Hrag Vartanian: [Laughs]
Nick Cave: I don’t … And I think the abundance, just the sort of, “Honey, giving you everything.” It’s all in this. It’s just radiant. It’s sort of peacocking in this sort of glorious way. Celebrating all of it.
Hrag Vartanian: How about living in Chicago? How would you say living here might have seeped into your work, if at all?
Nick Cave: I think living here allows a different kind of steadfastness for me. It allows a different kind of attention, a different kind of focus. Because, let me tell you, if I was in New York … yes, I could live there, of course, and move there. But I am so attracted to so many things, like fashion and design and art. So [about] whether or not I would be as clear as I am today. So I think for me, being here allows me to step out of it all and to get clear.
Hrag Vartanian: So it almost sounds like that would overstimulate you almost?
Nick Cave: Oh, yeah. Because I don’t know what I’d be. A fashion designer, I could possibly be, for sure.
Hrag Vartanian: So where’s the quietness in your work? How do you see the quietness?
Nick Cave: I think the quietness in my work is … I think the memory. I think it’s all sort of built in this nostalgic space of being able to … We all understand where this all comes from. We all can identify with something here.
Hrag Vartanian: Or associations with—
Nick Cave: Yeah, exactly. And so it’s almost going through this time capsule, and you’re just sort of there. And what was that moment like for you?
Hrag Vartanian: I love that thought, the memory of the piece. And so how do you see your relationship with memory in general? You talked about the past, but do memories begin ideas for you? I just like you to talk a little bit about what memory means for you.
Nick Cave: Well, memory never sort of begins ideas. It’s always the present that begins ideas. But the present cannot happen without the past. So it’s really this sort of ping pong back and forth until I land somewhere. So it’s all very much present.
Hrag Vartanian: Does forgetting play any role in your work?
Nick Cave: Forgetting? … Do we ever forget? That’s my answer. I don’t think we ever forget.
Hrag Vartanian: So, let’s go back to the newest work you’re creating. Do you see it as a part of a continuity of what you’ve been exploring? Is it a break at all?
Nick Cave: It definitely is a break, but I think about it like … I think the word “essence” is really the most important word for my evolution. As long as I can transfer the essence, then it can be in any medium. And so, for me, I wasn’t so sure about this work at the beginning, because I’m like … “Needlepoint? I’ve not done it. But somehow I have sort of resolved that within myself, and so I think it’s the right move.” And now that we are there, it’s very much a part of this work and this assemblage. It’s not far at the end of the day from how I work. I think when people see this work, they’ll be like, “Yes, it’s Nick Cave.”
Hrag Vartanian: I mean, I agree.
Nick Cave: Yeah. And so again, I think it’s just the essence. And that’s the most critical sort of part of these transitions. “How do I do that to where I lose nothing and gain everything?”
Hrag Vartanian: Are you aware of a certain kind of 19th century aesthetic in your work? Because I feel like there’s something in that is … I don’t want to say Victorian, because I don’t think it’s Victorian, and I don’t think it necessarily dominates, but it definitely seems to exist in a certain way. Is that part of the memory, is that part of the history? Does that sound right at all?
Nick Cave: I think it’s both. It’s part of the memory and part of the history. I think it’s part of the grandeur that I feel, that I’m sort of feeling in my body. This is part one of the series of works. Part two is where we’re needlepointing the entire panel, and it’s all about really looking at identity through dress, so fashion really is going to be pulled into that sort of history, with this grandeur of opulence and feeling yourself and everything else.
Hrag Vartanian: Is there an item of clothing that you would characterize as one of your favorites you ever owned and that you think about?
Nick Cave: Well look, I’ve got some things that I still owned when I was 25, and still wear. Still can wear. Let’s just say still can wear. I’m interested in this whole archival kind of thing, too. How do we take care of things? I think that’s really where I’m at. I mean, when I think about dress and clothing … I only wear vintage suits, and they’re fabulous, but that’s all I wear when I am really going to dress up. It’s all vintage. I just love the fit, the fabrics, the way in which they’re cut and made, but I’ll put on a contemporary shirt or shoe or something that just sort of brings it right to the present. But again, I’m interested in that history, that this garment has been existing in the world and belonged to someone else. And so, that is interesting to me, too.
Hrag Vartanian: Outside of your family, who would you consider to have fashion that you really have always adored or look up to?
Nick Cave: The church ladies. Their hats, and all of that. But I would say when it comes to designers, my favorite designer is Schiaparelli. It’s like, everything to me. It’s so fabulous. I’m interested in presentations or shows and how they sort of … Valentino, and just this level of beauty and decadence and fabrics and shapes and forms that are just all about innovation and lux at this sort of premier level. I’m interested in all of that in this work too. But at the same time, I’m interested in ghetto fabulousness, just like fucking it up, bringing it all together, and like, “Bitches, look at this!” So again, it’s not that it’s high / low, it’s, how do you find your own style within the availability of everything?
Hrag Vartanian: So could you see this in a church lady’s house?
Nick Cave: Oh, sure.
Hrag Vartanian: How about in a church?
Nick Cave: For sure.
Hrag Vartanian: You could see that too?
Nick Cave: Yeah, there’s a spiritualness to it all at the same time.
Hrag Vartanian: Did you grow up in the church?
Nick Cave: I grew up Methodist. But do I practice anything now? No.
Hrag Vartanian: Is there a certain connection you have with that kind of upbringing and this work role?
Nick Cave: I’m not sure if it would be based in religion necessarily, as opposed to a humanness, raised to be kind and …
Hrag Vartanian: Well, I was also thinking of social functions, because church cookouts or banquets, Those types of functions are also such an important part of churches, right?
Nick Cave: Yeah.
Hrag Vartanian: That’s why I was also thinking about that. Like, for me, the association is like the banquet where there’s always food and people would dress up. Do you know?
Nick Cave: Oh yeah. I did all of that, too.
Hrag Vartanian: You did?
Nick Cave: Oh, yeah.
Hrag Vartanian: And did you have to wear your Sunday best for those types of things?
Nick Cave: Oh yeah. Your Sunday best was from 9:00 until about 3:00.
Hrag Vartanian: And what did your Sunday best look like?
Nick Cave: It’s always a suit.
Hrag Vartanian: Always a suit.
Nick Cave: Always.
Hrag Vartanian: Was it like a pattern suit? Was it a pinstripe? Monochrome?
Nick Cave: Mostly black, blue.
Hrag Vartanian: Okay.
Nick Cave: Yeah, but always a suit for sure.
Hrag Vartanian: And the shirt, was it white?
Nick Cave: No. The shirt then could vary. Pattern to solids. Sometimes a tie, sometimes not. But never jeans.
Hrag Vartanian: Never.
Nick Cave: Never sneakers. Never.
[Both laugh]
Hrag Vartanian: For you, art seems to have been something that you’ve been able to experience the world through in some ways. Is that correct?
Nick Cave: Yeah.
Hrag Vartanian: And what haven’t you experienced yet through art that you’d love to?
Nick Cave: I don’t know.
Hrag Vartanian: But you’re open.
Nick Cave: Oh, always. Always open. And whatever that moment may be that will sort of cause me to have to respond or to reflect, will just go into the work that I’m currently working on in some form or another. It’s no longer about talking about something in the past tense as opposed to talking about something right now. So that’s been a shift in my work too.
Hrag Vartanian: Do words or books or anything like that play any role in your work?
Nick Cave: Yeah.
Hrag Vartanian: Are you inspired by books?
Nick Cave: For sure.
Hrag Vartanian: So what kind of writing?
Nick Cave: I would say not art. I would say more history, nonfiction, Black history, debates, conversations that are being had right now.
Hrag Vartanian: How do you access those mostly?
Nick Cave: Mostly New York Times, YouTube, Instagram. Probably three hours a day, Instagram, YouTube, all of it. Just sort of looking around and—
Hrag Vartanian: Exploring?
Nick Cave: Exploring.
Hrag Vartanian: I love that. Is there anything you want to add? You’ve been generous with your time and flexibility on everything we’ve talked about.
Nick Cave: No. The interview I really enjoyed.
Hrag Vartanian: Well, thank you.
Nick Cave: You’re welcome. Thanks for coming.
Hrag Vartanian: Pleasure.
Hrag Vartanian: Thanks so much for listening. This podcast was produced by Isabella Segalovich, and it’s made possible by Hyperallergic members. So thank you to the thousands of Hyperallergic members. For only $8 a month or $80 a year, you, too, can support independent arts journalism that tells the stories that people want to hear.
My name is Hrag Vartanian. I’m the Editor–in-Chief and co-founder of Hyperallergic. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
